which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i am applicable to up on the invasion of ukraine's served as a wake—up call to those members of nato have long ignored american demands that they spend more on defence. or did it? canada may still be snoozing. still well short of nato's defence bending target. of course canada is a long way from here. there are concerns about russian and chinese intentions much closer to home and in arctic north, for example. my guess is canada's defence minister, bill blair. is canada ready to get serious about defending itself?

bill blair in ottawa, welcome to hardtalk.— to hardtalk. thank you very much. to hardtalk. thank you very much- it _ to hardtalk. thank you very much- it is _ to hardtalk. thank you very much. it is a _ to hardtalk. thank you very much. it is a pleasure - to hardtalk. thank you very much. it is a pleasure to - to hardtalk. thank you very l much. it is a pleasure to have ou on much. it is a pleasure to have you on the — much. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. _ much. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. as minister| much. it is a pleasure to have l you on the show. as minister of defence in canada, how embarrassed are you that your country is still significantly failing to meet the collective commitment of nato member states to spend at least 2% of your gdp on defence? i states to spend at least 296 of your gdp on defence?- states to spend at least 296 of your gdp on defence? i am not embarrassed _ your gdp on defence? i am not embarrassed at _ your gdp on defence? i am not embarrassed at all _ your gdp on defence? i am not embarrassed at all because - embarrassed at all because canada, under our government, has been investing very significantly in defence and then a very strong upper trajectory of defence spending.

we have just introduced our latest defence policy, which injects a significant amount of new investment into defence spending. it builds up greater capabilities, moves us much closer to the target of 2%, and with some of the other things we have articulated in this defence policy i think we are on a strong and inevitable path to achieving that 2% goal. canada is well aware of its responsibilities to our nato allies, our continental allies and around the world, and we are very strongly focused as you havejust are very strongly focused as you have just mentioned are very strongly focused as you havejust mentioned on our responsibilities to defend our own country and our own sovereignty and we are making very significant investments, we will be at 1.76 as a result of this year's budget, announcements and we have made it very clear signal to our allies we know we have to do more, we are investing in additional elegies that will put us on a very rare and strong path to 2%.- put us on a very rare and strong path to 2%. you dressed it u- as strong path to 2%. you dressed it up as best — strong path to 2%. you dressed it up as best you _ strong path to 2%. you dressed it up as best you can, _ strong path to 2%. you dressed it up as best you can, but - strong path to 2%. you dressed it up as best you can, but you l it up as best you can, but you are basically breaking a very clear promise. your prime

ministerjustin trudeau is one of the nato leaders who last year fully committed to make that 2% target. you have just told me you are going to get to 1.76% of gdp on defence, that won't be until the financial year 29 — 30, some five years away. so not only are you breaking your promise, you are not even going to get close to meeting your promise after the next five years. if i meeting your promise after the next five years.— next five years. if i may be clear, next five years. if i may be clear. i _ next five years. if i may be clear, i think _ next five years. if i may be clear, i think we _ next five years. if i may be clear, i think we can - clear, i think we can demonstrate to our allies that we are working hard to actually keep that promise, and my defence spending budget is going to increase by 27% next year over this year. since 2017, our government began investing significantly in defence. we have more than doubled our defence spending in that ensuing seven years. as a result of the new investments, we are tripling our defence spending and we still have more to do... if i spending and we still have more to do... ._ spending and we still have more todo... to do... if i may say so, that siml to do... if i may say so, that simply shows _ to do... if i may say so, that simply shows how _ to do... if i may say so, that simply shows how little - to do... if i may say so, that simply shows how little you | simply shows how little you have spent on defence over

many, many years. the opposition conservative say that canada's military is simply disfigured by dwindling personnel numbers, rusting warships, deteriorating fighter jets, and one of your experts in the country on defence studies, paul mitchell, says the approach remains lackadaisical and friendless. nobody is convinced by what you have told me.— have told me. those are remarkable _ have told me. those are remarkable statements | have told me. those are - remarkable statements coming from the conservatives who, when they were in government, actually reached a historic low in defence spending of less than 1% of gdp. their abysmal record of support for national defence and defence capability i think speaks for itself. indeed speak. in fact as ijust said we have already undertaken initiatives to double spending, we are now working towards tripling spending in every single case the conservatives have voted against those initiatives. quite honestly

their words don't match their deeds, and the criticism that they level, there are old generals who talk about what we have not done but i look at their awful record in making sure that the canadian armed forces were ready, the lack of preparation which inherited, the investments we are making and work we are doing now. we are replacing our hallifax class frigates. they have been on the water for 45 years, they cost more money to maintain and replace. we are investing in fighter aircraft and capabilities, we have more to do in acquiring underwater surveillance and integrated air missile defence. all of those expenditures will take us past 2%. it would be very nice if some of those critics could be a little bit clearer in showing support for those investments. they talk a good game but they never deliver.— never deliver. polls suggest that many — never deliver. polls suggest that many canadians - never deliver. polls suggest that many canadians are - that many canadians are increasingly concerned about the lack of military capacity

in your country given the geopolitical situation that we see rising tensions around the world. ijust wonder how see rising tensions around the world. i just wonder how you, as minister of defence, can be satisfied with such vague commitments to future military capabilities. for example, this phrase in your most recent events review that you have been just talking about with me, that canada is "exploring options for renewing and expanding its submarine fleet.". this is a key strategic asset and you can't be more vague than simply saying we are looking at options. saying we are looking at options-— saying we are looking at o tions. ., , options. one of the things i will not put _ options. one of the things i will not put in _ options. one of the things i will not put in our - options. one of the things i will not put in our defence l will not put in our defence policies is unfunded commitments, so the money that our government committed to defence spending in this latest budget which we now have before the house but only introduced in april by our finance minister, money that we have committed to that is going to significantly advance kits, but i would point out that we have

been very clear, we know we have to invest, we have to replace, we have an ageing victoria class fleet that we bought them second hand from the uk in the 90s. those ships are no longerfit the uk in the 90s. those ships are no longer fit for purpose and we need to replace them. i am doing the work now to identify exactly what our requirements are and to go to the marketplace and send a clear signal to those that we are requiring this capability and when that work is done and it will not take that long. i will be able to go back to my government and secure the funding that is necessary to do it. but you mention the canadians' going concern. it has been very purposeful for me. ifound there has been very purposeful for me. i found there was not a great deal of support among canadians for significant new investments in defence. there are natural and understandable concerns, affordability and housing issues, healthcare and dental care, lifting kids out of poverty, all of those things are important obligations for

our government but i began very purposely having conversations with canadians of the need to invest more in defence, and what we have seen over the last eight months is a doubling of support among canadians for investments we know we have to make in defence and one of the things most compelling for canadians with a refocusing of our defence policy on our responsibilities to defend canada, to defend our north, the arctic approaches because of the changing geopolitical situation, the actions of russia and china and around the world but imprinting in our... i want to go to specifics like your arctic strategy in a moment, but to stick with the big picture. the achilles heel of canada for a very long time has been your reliance on the united states and the assumption that you will always be protected by your big neighbour and partner to the south of the 100 years ago i am mindful a famous canadian liberal politician said canada is a fireproof house far removed from all flammable materials. you can't be so

complacent anymore, can you, and the americans, your longtime allies and partners, are putting real pressure on you now. we have a senior american general saying that he is going to have tough conversations with canada, and we heard donald trump, when he was president, mocking justin trudeau for the failure for your government to spend enough on defence. the americans will force you to get real, won't they? i force you to get real, won't the ? ~ , ., ., force you to get real, won't the ? ~' ,, . ~' force you to get real, won't the ? ~ ,, ., ~ ., they? i think you are kind of inanorin they? i think you are kind of ignoring canada's _ they? i think you are kind of ignoring canada's long - they? i think you are kind of. ignoring canada's long history of being there for our allies. canada was the first answer to britain's all in the first and second world war, most of the investments of the canadian armed forces have not been domestic because we have the benefit of geography, we are surrounded by three oceans, one of which has mostly been frozen in the past, and we are a benign neighbour and the support of superpower in the united states. but canada's military has been actively

engaged in europe and in the indo pacific and in the middle east and around the world. but with respect. — east and around the world. but with respect, let's take one specific... ukraine, canada has given best military and financial assistance to ukraine and small european countries, relatively small countries like denmark and norway. how do you justify that? i denmark and norway. how do you justify that?— justify that? i would simply oint justify that? i would simply point out — justify that? i would simply point out i _ justify that? i would simply point out i think— justify that? i would simply point out i think you - justify that? i would simply point out i think you might| point out i think you might want to go back and check them map because canada's investment in ukraine since the onset of the war, we didn't begin in 2022 when russia invaded ukraine at the latest time, but in 2015 we became training the ukrainian armed forces in ukraine, and we did that partnership with the uk. in 2022 we had to move training out of ukraine into poland and the uk but we continue to make those investments. canada has intuited nearly $14 billion in military and other financial idea and since the onset of hostilities, we were very close with president zelensky, i have

spoken to him a couple of times this week and with their defence industry minister as well. there are really strong ties between our two countries. we have from the very outset of hostilities ending well before hostilities ending well before hostilities been there for ukraine and continue to be there for ukraine. i ukraine and continue to be there for ukraine.- ukraine and continue to be there for ukraine. i know that ou there for ukraine. i know that you have _ there for ukraine. i know that you have spoken _ there for ukraine. i know that you have spoken to _ there for ukraine. i know that you have spoken to the - you have spoken to the ukrainians many times, as indeed hasjustin trudeau, but i look at the message you send an compare it without coming from an in recent weeks from president macron in france who has said that it is time to stop talking of redlines, he won't even rule out the possibility of sending french and western troops into ukraine, into the theatre of war. you, on the other hand, have always very explicitly said, and i'm quoting something you said in the past," i do not want to put canadian armed forces anywhere near that combat theatre." i forces anywhere near that combat theatre. "- forces anywhere near that combat theatre. " i was at that meetin: combat theatre. " i was at that meeting with _ combat theatre. " i was at that meeting with president - combat theatre. " i was at that l meeting with president macron, i think was an important

conversation for all the european nato leaders who were at that table and i was president as well. we are all looking for ways in which we can step up and assist ukraine more. but at the same time i think you will note that my position is very closely aligned with your government's position with respect to the support we are providing to you range, and at the same time we have also understanding the caution that many of our european nato allies have with respect to the deployment of troops in the country, we are very respectful of those concerns, and as well we are very close with ukraine. what i have also said is that i am quote open to deploying troops in ukraine at the right time but in consultation with our nato allies, this is not the time and there are other ways in which we can continue to support ukraine.— in which we can continue to support ukraine. you talked about the — support ukraine. you talked about the arctic _ support ukraine. you talked about the arctic a _ support ukraine. you talked about the arctic a moment l support ukraine. you talked - about the arctic a moment ago. let's talk specifically about the far north. do you see russia and, indeed, china is hostile actors now in the arctic north, and what are you doing if that is the case, to

combat the threat you see? arctic sovereignty and arctic securities not merely a planetree for ship sailed when theiceis planetree for ship sailed when the ice is out. it is about investing in persistent presence in our military and strengthening infrastructure for the people who live in our north. it is how we maintain our sovereignty. what we have seen is far more aggressive action of our adverse areas in the north. we certainly have seen and witnessed it for some period of time but increasingly from russia as well, and also we are starting to see far more interventions from the republic of china in the arctic as well. i think part of it is the arctic is also i think an opportunity at an important source of security on our supply chains for the free world, and so we see that those could potentially be challenged by other theories and we have a responsibility to our allies our own country to be there more persistently, to be

stronger, and to put the infrastructure in place, ability and the people that are going to enable us to maintain our security. going to enable us to maintain oursecurity. by going to enable us to maintain our security. by the way, you spoke a bit about the work we do with the americans. canada recently committed $40 billion to nato modernisation and it will include installations in canada by canadians spending canadian dollars on after go over the horizon and pole over the horizon, installations on arctic satellite receiving stations. new northern support hubs where we can deploy our new fighterjets, our transport new fighter jets, our transport planes, new fighterjets, our transport planes, our surveillance fleet and our tactical helicopters. just to be clear about one thing... being there for our allies in the north. sorry to interrupt, but to be clear about one thing, we talked about one thing, we talked about the showdown between nato, western powers and russia in ukraine with all of the western assistance is going to ukraine. in the past, there has always been an attempt to keep

the arctic separate from other geopolitical tensions, and either it is after council which russia plays a full party and where the effort is to get all the arctic countries to talk to each other, to get a dialogue going, which is insulated from wider geopolitical tensions. is that there are over? is the arctic council effectively dead now? it is an excellent question, and i think with the advent of finland and sweden into nato, there is a responsibility. i've been meeting this week with the nordic ambassadors to canada, but also with my colleagues, who are defence ministers from those countries, and so for finland, sweden, norway, iceland, denmark, the united states and us as well, and i think the united kingdom has a here —— a role here as well, we recognise we have a responsibility in the protection of nato, it has a northern frontier, and that is the arctic, and i agree we do

not want to see that becoming a theatre of conflict, and there are a number of important diplomatic efforts, including the arctic council, but quite frankly that relationship has been badly shaken by russia's aggressive actions, the illegal invasion of ukraine, and has cause for deep concern among the allies. we understand that in order to keep the peace in the arctic, we have to be strong in the arctic. it is one of the reasons i have turned our national defence policy strongly towards that responsibility and we will work very closely in collaboration of italy with the continental defence of the united states, but with the arctic transfer all of our nato allies and i think it is a shared responsibility. when we are collaborative and we work together i think we can be strong and data that ever becoming a theatre of conflict. briefly if you can, does canada want tojoin the briefly if you can, does canada want to join the so—called aukus group? that is australia, the uk, alongside the united states, in a special security arrangement? now it's

short—term goal is to achieve cooperation on submarine technology, the idea to give australia access to that submarine technology but in a more wide sense, it is information sharing on technology, aia, new weapon systems. does canada want to join, and how quickly?- join, and how quickly? very clear, join, and how quickly? very clear. the — join, and how quickly? very clear, the first _ join, and how quickly? very clear, the first pillar - join, and how quickly? very clear, the first pillar of - clear, the first pillar of aukus was really about the sharing of nuclear technology for nuclear submarines and canada quite frankly is in the market for conventionally powered submarines, that is what our navy requires to do the work we do, and at the same time, ourfive eyes partners, australia, united kingdom and the united states are our closest allies and we work very closely together. we have had discussions with them, i have every expectation we have an opportunity to work on the second pillar of aukus, and as you mention, that includes, i think canada has very significant contributions to make that would be very significant to the original aukus partners. there are a number of other countries that

can make a real contribution to the second pillar of aukus. canada certainly is quite anxious and willing to be part of that. ., ., , ., , of that. your ambition is clear. have _ of that. your ambition is clear. have you - of that. your ambition is clear. have you consider of that. your ambition is - clear. have you consider the fact that if donald trump wins the white house in november, donald trump may well not want to canada in august. he has described justin trudeau variously as dishonest, weak, a far left lunatic. it is pretty unlikely trump will want to cosy up to canada underjustin trudeau? ~ , , . cosy up to canada underjustin trudeau?_ trudeau? with respect i have worked with _ trudeau? with respect i have worked with the _ trudeau? with respect i have worked with the united - trudeau? with respect i have| worked with the united states for decades on a number of different fronts. i'm on the publics safety side are now in the defence side. there is more to america than the white house and our relationship with the us military, our relationship with their congress and with americans i think is the strength and the basis of our continental security. we are going to continue to work hard on that and we are making the investments in modernisation and in our own military to be good partners to the united states and am very confident that we have a lot to contribute. our allies in the

five eyes know that canada has much to contribute, and i'm very confident.— very confident. let's talk about the _ very confident. let's talk about the middle - very confident. let's talk about the middle east, l very confident. let's talk - about the middle east, about israel and what it may be about to do in gaza, in particular mounting an all—out assault on rafah. where roughly 1.3 million displaced palestinians are currently living. joe biden has said in the last 24 hours if the israelis going to rafah, i am not supplying the weapons that they have used to deal with the cities. we are not going to supply the weapons and the artillery shells that have been used by the israelis. is canada saying the same thing? i am a little confused about your defence relationship with israel. have you already halted all arms supplies or not?- all arms supplies or not? yes, we have not — all arms supplies or not? yes, we have not been _ all arms supplies or not? yes, we have not been supplying i all arms supplies or not? yes we have not been supplying arms to israel throughout any portion of this conflict. we do have a trade relationship with them but it does not include them but it does not include the provision of armaments to israel. we have a very rigorous

export regime, but no permits have been issued since this conflict began. let me also say that canada share's president biden�*s concern about a conflict in rafah because of the vulnerability of the significant civilian population, and we have called for a ceasefire, we called for the return of those hostages and greater access of humanitarian aid into the region and we are deeply concerned about the impact on innocent civilians, and we share that with our allies in the united kingdom, the united states, and we will continue to work towards a peaceful resolution of that conflict. typically evoke your relationship with israel clearly has been damaged by what the israelis have done in gaza in recent weeks and months. you are saying right now canada is no longer prepared to supply arms to israel, right?— prepared to supply arms to israel, right? what i have said is frankly we _ israel, right? what i have said is frankly we strongly - israel, right? what i have said is frankly we strongly support| is frankly we strongly support israel's right to exist and defend itself and we strongly condemn the hamas attack that occurred. �* , ., .,

condemn the hamas attack that occurred. �*, ., ., occurred. it's not what i asked ou. i occurred. it's not what i asked you- i know. _ occurred. it's not what i asked you. i know, but— occurred. it's not what i asked you. i know, but i _ occurred. it's not what i asked you. i know, but i think- occurred. it's not what i asked you. i know, but i think it- occurred. it's not what i asked you. i know, but i think it is. you. i know, but i think it is important _ you. i know, but i think it is important context. - you. i know, but i think it is important context. we - you. i know, but i think it is- important context. we strongly condemn the hamas attack that the same time we expect that israel will uphold international law and do everything possible to protect innocent civilians. we have expressed to them our strong concern and condemnation of the humanitarian crisis that has been created in gaza, and particularly we are very worried about continued or expansion of hostilities in rafah because there is a very vulnerable population there. i want to get to one other arena and that is your relationship with china. ajudge, who launched a commission of enquiry into foreign interference in canadian affairs, particularly politics, concluded that china has been the most persistent and sophisticated foreign interference threat to canada, and the government must re—establish trust by informing the public of what has been going on and taking real concrete steps to deter and counter it. can you convince

the canadian public that you are capable of counteracting chinese cyber threats? first of all, i chinese cyber threats? first of all. i agree _ chinese cyber threats? first of all, i agree completely - chinese cyber threats? first of all, i agree completely with i all, i agree completely with thejudge all, i agree completely with the judge that we have a responsibility to make sure canadians are aware of the threat the people's republic of china represents. two, critically important infrastructure in canada, they have made a concerted effort to interfere with our society and elections. i was public safety minister prior to being the defence minister. i issued a very public document to canadians in 2020, alerting them to the threat of chinese political interference. it is work out government has been undertaking. work out government has been undertaking-— undertaking. one of the allegations _ undertaking. one of the allegations was - undertaking. one of the allegations was that. undertaking. one of the| allegations was that you undertaking. one of the - allegations was that you and the prime minister were not really across the nature of the threat, you didn't even read some of the papers that your own intelligence service provided about what the chinese were doing. provided about what the chinese were doing-— were doing. unfortunately you are misinformed _ were doing. unfortunately you are misinformed on _ were doing. unfortunately you are misinformed on that - were doing. unfortunately you are misinformed on that one, | are misinformed on that one, because in fact the testimony before the enquiry was that our intelligence services did not supply that information and it did not share that with the

government at the time, including eye as the minister. but we have taken very concerted efforts to respond to that, we havejust introduced concerted efforts to respond to that, we have just introduced a foreign agent legislation in canada. there are other countries that are also hostile to our country and interest and who have been acting considerably. one of the things i'm responsible for is the communications of the security establishment. we havejust establishment. we have just invested establishment. we havejust invested heavily in the creation of a cyber force. we are doing what is necessary to protect ourselves against those types of attacks. just protect ourselves against those types of attacks-— types of attacks. just and on a thou . ht types of attacks. just and on a thou~ht i types of attacks. just and on a thought i aired _ types of attacks. just and on a thought i aired earlier, - thought i aired earlier, canadians in the past might have thought they were pretty flameproof. i guess the message todayis flameproof. i guess the message today is canada is not as fireproof as you and other canadians might have hoped. for 150 ears, canadians might have hoped. fr?" 150 years, canada has stepped up 150 years, canada has stepped up to fight alongside our allies, to defend world peace and the international rules order that has kept us all say. we recognise that our country is now because of the changing climate, the changing technologies and the activities

of some of our potential adversaries, we are also now closer to the front line. canada shares the largest maritime border with russia of any country in the world. i recognise we have responsibilities to defend our country, our continent and to be that strong for our allies, but i think if you're going to be strong around the world, have to be strong at home. ibiilii have to be strong at home. bill blair, thank — have to be strong at home. bill blair, thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. mr; blair, thank you for “oining me on hardtalkh on hardtalk. my pleasure, thanks for— having me. hello. thanks forjoining me. we are coming to the end of a fairly substantial spell of generally dry and very warm weather. storms have been breaking out across many western parts of

the uk, downpours and places, and that sets the scene for the week ahead. it is going to be more unsettled, not quite as warm, and infact low more unsettled, not quite as warm, and in fact low pressure is approaching us. it will be affecting us for most of the week, so that does mean showers most days, not necessarily in the same place, but certainly a more unsettled picture, and thenjust more unsettled picture, and then just the possibility of this atlantic high nosing back in again, as we head towards the end of the week, where it may not happen until the weekend, so low—pressure it is now for this week. if you are watching sunday night into the early hours of monday, still a possibility of seeing the faint aurora in the sky almost anywhere in the uk where we have a clear skies. i know that last night was disappointing, but there is at least a chance this night, if are inclined. now, the weather, generally dry i think across the bulk of england, with the clearest weather towards the east, and this is the forecast for the morning. but here, rearing its head,is morning. but here, rearing its head, is the weather front, and that spells rain for many

south—western and western parts of the uk. northern ireland, too, and it is a slow—moving weather front. too, and it is a slow—moving weatherfront. that's too, and it is a slow—moving weather front. that's because this area of low pressure, once it arrives, it will park itself in and not really move further towards the east, so these weather fronts will just towards the east, so these weather fronts willjust be rotating back into the low, keeping eastern parts and northern areas of the country generally dry and still quite warm at 23 degrees, but look at that. by 8p on monday, that weather front has hardly moved, so it will have been a really grey and rainy day, and by tuesday, the weather front has onlyjust reached eastern parts of england, moves into scotland, so i think layers of cloud here, outbreaks of rain, not as persistent by that stage, i think the gaps in the cloud also further south will be bigger, so some hazy sunshine coming through, but look at the temperatures. everywhere by now in the teens. so here is wednesday again, and a reminder that no park to the south of us, and just at high pressure starting to creep in, but it is still way out in the atlantic, so a few showers scattered on wednesday before some of us actually a fine day,

western scotland, 19 degrees, some sunshine and a beautiful day they are in northern ireland, so not bad at all, despite low pressure being close by. he is thursday. we are still close to the low. in fact, velo, another one here is across the near continent, so sending some showers our way, but i think out towards the west, the weather is looking absolutely fine, around 20 degrees i think at highest in some towns and cities. and then friday, again, a few showers around, infact friday, again, a few showers around, in fact they look as though they could be even more frequent again by friday. the high pressure is still way out there, and the temperatures are typically between around 16 and the odd 20 here and there. so that's friday. how about beyond that? marko his the outlook. the low pressure out across the continent there driving some storms, and the high—pressure starting to notice in again, settling things down across the uk by the time we get to saturday, sunday, possibly into next week as well, so more

settled weather eventually said should arrive, hints of it already for belfast and edinburgh but the bulk of the country at least for the week ahead and enter the first half of the weekend looks fairly unsettled, with showers at times. but i think the temperatures will be pretty decent. that's it for me. bye—bye.

live from london, this is bbc news. israel says dozens of trucks loaded with flour have been able to reach northern gaza via a new humanitarian crossing. russia's defence minister, sergei shoigu, is out as vladimir putin replaces him in a rare cabinet shake—up. and at one with nature: a record number of wild swimming spots are designated as bathing sites here in england. hello. i'm sally bundock. a very warm welcome to the programme. israel says dozens of trucks loaded with flour have been able to cross into northern gaza. these are pictures from israel's military. they say it shows trucks passing through the newly opened western erez crossing. there'd been warnings that

barely any aid had been reaching the region after other crossings were closed.